Frum Shidduch Dates - Help!
Okay. I'm confused. I like him. I really really like him. I'm glad I do, because I was afraid that I wouldn't. Never having had the requisite "crushes" in middle/high school, I never knew whether I could like a boy like that.
With all that said, I'm still not sure how to proceed. I grew up in a non-yeshivish environment. I know about shidduchim because I've seen them happening around me. But I've never had a real, serious talk with anybody about how shidduchim work. This boy isn't sure either, I think.
Do I tell him I love him? Can I comment on his appearance at all (eyes, etc.)? Can I mention how I feel while waiting for each date? Or how I feel when I'm with him?
You all know me. You know that I'm not asking these questions because I want dirty or prust material on my blog. But I just need help from people who have lived in this world for longer than I have. He's a yeshiva boy, used to the ways of yeshiva boys. I want to express my caring for him in the appropriate way. I don't really understand how many barriers fall down once you start going out with somebody. For example, I would never enjoy if a boy was staring at me. But when I'm dating the boy, of course I like for him to stare at me!
But that doesn't mean that all guidelines disappear, does it? I need advice! Please, please let me know what I can and cannot say to him...
With all that said, I'm still not sure how to proceed. I grew up in a non-yeshivish environment. I know about shidduchim because I've seen them happening around me. But I've never had a real, serious talk with anybody about how shidduchim work. This boy isn't sure either, I think.
Do I tell him I love him? Can I comment on his appearance at all (eyes, etc.)? Can I mention how I feel while waiting for each date? Or how I feel when I'm with him?
You all know me. You know that I'm not asking these questions because I want dirty or prust material on my blog. But I just need help from people who have lived in this world for longer than I have. He's a yeshiva boy, used to the ways of yeshiva boys. I want to express my caring for him in the appropriate way. I don't really understand how many barriers fall down once you start going out with somebody. For example, I would never enjoy if a boy was staring at me. But when I'm dating the boy, of course I like for him to stare at me!
But that doesn't mean that all guidelines disappear, does it? I need advice! Please, please let me know what I can and cannot say to him...
posted by Holeches Levadi at 12:16 PM
20 Comments:
This is from a guys perspective, I hope I am not too blunt:
1. this sounds like your first date and you are excited about the possibilities in the shidduch.
2. since it is just 1 date realize you are just getting to know the other person and to take things in the proper context
3. you can get away with commenting on parve accessories before you move to the actual person (For example: Nice cufflinks, I like the tie, that’s a beautiful watch), seeing how the person reacts to the complement will give you insight into how to proceed without turning off the guy
4. remember that dating can be a very strenuous process and try not to: be pressured, pressure yourself, pressure others through the shidduch process. It can be very bewildering and very seldom do you understand what things occurs.
5. I wish you Bracha Va’Hatzlocha and you should build a bais naimon b’yisroal bkiruv, with your zivug!
I was going to say exactly what Essar said. Especially for your purposes point three. It is all about communicating, so say sometthing nice and see his reaction. That'll be your cue.
Hatzlocha!
I read your posting after you commented on my blog. Unfortunately, I too did not grow up in the yeshiva world and do not have any good advice. I met my wife in college.
Good luck!
This is not my first date. It's date #5. Yes, I was excited earlier, but I didn't have time to blog...I realize that five dates isn't like "let's get engaged" time (at least for me), but I keep on getting more and more excited and I'm not sure how to show him. I feel like we keep on tiptoeing around things, saying things like "I really, really had a good time tonight" which we said on dates 1 and 2 as well. We're putting a bit more feeling into it now, but that's all...
Thank you. #3 is kinda hard from the girl's side (I have no idea which cufflinks he's been wearing recently, or ties, I've been looking at his face for most of it, and suits all look the same...and I feel like it's kind of weird for me to suddenly notice these things) but thank you for the advice. I'll definitely try...That really helped.
And a guy's perspective is great. I am worried about #4 though. I know that many of my married friends felt somewhat pressured and that the guy didn't (which caused some slight issues). In this case, though, I'm not feeling pressured at all. He's being really good about it. I'm just nervous about doing the pressuring.
Thank you, and more comments would be very much appreciated!
dont say too much or you will scare him away
also it could be fantasy not real love
SPO PLAY IT SLOW-DONT GET TOO EXCITED TOO QUICK
WHAT COMES FAST FADES FAST
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OK & now from a girls perspective:
In general you shouldnt give away too much about your feelings. Shidduch dating is "safe" meaning everything is talked thru the shadchan. If you like him like him, tell her. She will deal with it appropriately. You should not compliment his features but compliment the dates and say you had a great time. He will get the vibes that you like him without spelling it out. I think as you continue going out you will know more and more where you stand. Let him take the lead. Guys like the chase anyway. Do NOT tell him you love him. Wait till the proposal :-)
Good luck!
I think it is important for you to express your feelings you have about him to him. Although you shouldnt say "I love you" you can tell him that you have "feelings for him" Although you shouldnt comment on any particualr body feature you like about him, you can say " I think you look very nice" or " I think you look handsome tonight"
It is important for you both to get your feelings out in the open, though in an appropriate way.
Hatzlacha Rabbah!!!
FG, RY, and DM - Thank you so much! I feel so blind doing this, and it really relaly helps to have people walk me through it...
FG - You said "Shidduch dating is "safe" meaning everything is talked thru the shadchan."
Um, is this always true? The shadchan said that she's planning on asking him if he wants to call me directly soon. Is that normal in the shidduch world? I mean, I've heard of "dropping the shadchan" before, but I thought that was only done in the more MO world, and this boy is most definitely not MO. Is it normal for her to take herself out of the picture?
I don't know what I would do without this blog to ask these questions to...
> Do I tell him I love him?
[shrug] not a guy but my general impression is that love is a big pressure world no matter which world you're in
> Can you commnent on his appearance?
Okay maybe I'm a little confused. You're not more fascinated by the color of this guys eyes than by wheather or not he's kind or he's honest.
So don't compliment the body, even though we all appreciate that, compliment the person. Tell him what you liked about him or the good impressions that you get about him.
e.g.
"Wow, it must take alot of discipline to do that every day."
(don't say sweet. really don't, even if it's true. guys for some reason do not like that compliment)
> ...how I feel waiting for a date?... with him?
This is only me, but my prespective on this is that it more a time to experience the feeling than to verbalize it. Verbalizing it externalizes and somehow lessens it. So just enjoy being around him and he'll catch on.
the point of dating is setting up a relationship that can sustain a marriage. which means learning about the other person's strengths and weakness, not in a clinical fashion, in an exploring a new friendship fashion.
which means talking about personal matters, goals, aspiration, ambitions, past and future, about what the you think about family and community and human beings.
concentrate on the person and be kind. and if you say something wrong or hurtful, apologize immediately.
The hardest part is going to be restraining external, i.e. physical expression. Be shomer!
but, if G-d wills, that will be temporary. :)
I'm sorry, I didn't grow up in the yeshivish world either and so I don't really know what to say.
Wish you hatzlacha
Coming from a yeshivishe male perspective...
It is customary to drop the shadchan at a certain point, but only if and when the two of you feel comfortable sorting these things out yourselves. And it's not clear to me that you're there yet.
Even though in yeshivishe circles 5 dates is pretty serious and the shadchan is generally dropped around that time, but some people read dropping the shadchan as synonymous with being on the road to getting engaged. Which sounds like a message you're not sure about yourself, and one you're not ready to send.
Obviously you can try it and still bring the shadchan back into the picture for various issues that may pop up, though depending on you, the boy, and the shadchan that can sometimes be awkward and uncomfortable.
I would HIGHLY suggest that you discuss all of these feeling with the shadchan, who should hopefully be able to advise on how to proceed. A bit bizarre that he/she TOLD you about asking the boy if he's ready to call you, without ASKING you if you're ready for that. Unless you said things that were construed to mean that you are.
In these circles, certainly under no circumstances don't you dare tell him that you love him!!!! Some people will even tell you that you can't say it until you're married, but you've got time to worry about that.
You haven't told us much about the dates or about him, so it's hard to know where things stand and where he's holding. Again, a good shadchan should be able to advise you if he's farther ahead of you or behind you. If he's comfortable, I would think that "eidel"ly letting him know that you enjoy his company would be appropriate. But if he's not ready, he'll feel pressure.
Also remember that just because this is your first crush, this isn't high school games here. It's not right to say something that sounds nice and fun, but doesn't accurately reflect where you're holding yet and how serious you are. Saying something which can be read as "I should be ready to get engaged in 3 more dates" isn't fair to him if it's not true, so be careful to be honest with yourself and then decide how best to accurately express it.
Good luck and keep us posted, and feel free to email me (parshapotpourri@optonline.net) if you want to discuss things further.
PP - thank you so much!!! That was really helpful.
I don't know if I'm on the road to being engaged. Oh, I'm so confused. I mean, in theory I'd be happy to say yes if he asked me. Logically, I can't say that I would, though. I mean, how can you know that you'll be ready in three dates? I'll be ready when I'm ready. In three dates, I'll know if I'm ready. How can I plan in advance?
The problem is, it's not a great shadchan. At all. It's an inexperienced shadchan, a younger married woman who I think bit off more than she could chew. Based on what you said, I'm thinking of asking him if he wants to ask one of his rabbeim to act as shadchan instead...but I'm not sure exactly how to bring that up.
Thank you so much for your advice. It's helping me view shidduchim through a completely different lens - the yeshivish lens, I suppose. You ought to write a user's manual for shidduchim...for those of us who have no idea what they're doing...
My pleasure. I'm hardly the one to write a user's manual (besides I'm too busy writing other stuff - come check out my blog in between dates - if nothing else it'll give you something nice and religious to say on the next date! :).
But seriously there are manuals out there that I'm sure say what I said plus quite a bit more. I gather that you don't live in any place with a decent Judaica store, but I'm sure you can find and order them online (perhaps pay a few extra $ for rush shipping by your next date :) - I seem to recall
The Shadchan's Wife by Devorah Wiener (Weiner?)
Art of the Date by Ruki Renov - quite humorous, I think it has shidduch info also
a shame I'm drawing a blank - another one, skinny, yellow cover about 8-10 years old
I just checked feldheim.com and targum.com but didn't see them. They have other books about the dating process, knowing who you are and what you're looking for and how to find it, but you may be past that.
If you call Eichler's (888-EICHLERS) I see that they have both on their web site and I'm sure you can have them shipped.
As for the shadchan, yes it sounds like she meant well but is in a bit over her heads. I take it there's nobody (e.g. a Rebbitzen) that you're close with, with whom you could discuss the situation and/or ask them about taking over?
If you're afraid this inexperienced shadchan may mess things up, consider bringing it up with her somehow, or possibly with him, whichever you think would be easier. As awkward as these things are, this is part of life, and if he's the one for you, he should be able to respect your insecurities about the situation and you should begin to feel comfortable opening up and communicating them to him to see how he reacts.
Wish I knew what more to say, but I'm a bit out of my league as well. The only other idea I have would be to call a big-league shadchan, explain the situation, and ask them 1) for advice, and 2) if they would take over. I could give you the names and #s of Lakewood's two most well-known shadchanim if you're interested. Feel free to email if I can be of any help.
just take it cool-now I realize my wife hooked me
It's good to see that you're getting advice. You might also want to keep in mind that not everything about dating can be found in a manual. You have to play things as they come to some degree, and you'll know when you're ready to get engaged,if it's the right thing. It's often best not to rush things, give it enough time and you'll be comfortable with whatever decision you make.
I understand that you have requested me for my input. So far the other commenters have pretty much covered everything. I do think it is a good idea for the boys rebbi to take over if you are not ready to do this solo yet. It happens in many shidduchim that last minute negotiations have to be made, usually because one of the parties will get nervous and begin looking for faults in the other. A smart and objective intermediary is great for playing down these fears.
Parsha; I am in process of publishing a book with Targum on this exact subject!
Va'Anochi; everyone gave you great advice, but here's another tip- lean back and allow the guy to take the lead. If he opens up the forum for you to discuss how you feel then the ball is in your court. Right now, it's still in his.
Whatever happens, may it be Beshaah Tovah and with mazal!!
Nu??? After all of this, no updates? Where are things holding (or not)?
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