A Working Boy - Does he have his priorities straight?
Why are they so hard to find? While responding to a post on a slightly different subject, I realized that this is something that has been bothering me for quite some time. I'm not asking for a boy that's learning all day. (That's not to say that I wouldn't go out with one, just that it's not a "requirement" at this point.) I have great respect for those boys who are working and make gedarim and learn Torah whenever they can when they're not working. Really I do. There's just one problem.
Where are they???
When I was in seminary (quite a long time ago), I remember holding late-night discussions with my friends about how working boys are fine. About how as long as they have their priorities straight, they can be great Ovdei Hashem. We would discuss the falacy of the full-time learning boys, many of whom are probably faking it anyway. As the year went on, we got more and more open to the idea of marrying learning boys, but it was again with the caveat that "working boys are great too, as long as they have their priorities straight."
I have now all but given up that caveat. I feel like, while it was okay in theory, it must remain just that - a theory. I've been out with many boys, but this whole kovea ittim things has never held true in practice (with the boys I've gone out with).
It's funny, because you're supposed to "frum out" in Israel, not many years later back in the States. But seeing the sad reality out there has changed my mind. Boys who work are often (not always, but often) hard-pressed to find the time to learn each day. They're proud of themselves if they have a chavrusa a couple of times a week and spend some time learning on Shabbos. Now, I'm not downplaying how amazing that is. I don't have the chiyuv to learn every day, and I can't say how well I would do if I did. It's hard to take the time out of your schedule to learn that regularly. But just a few minutes every day and every night is plenty! I'm not asking for much more than that...just the basics of the halacha to show that you're committed...
Is that so much to ask?
Where are they???
When I was in seminary (quite a long time ago), I remember holding late-night discussions with my friends about how working boys are fine. About how as long as they have their priorities straight, they can be great Ovdei Hashem. We would discuss the falacy of the full-time learning boys, many of whom are probably faking it anyway. As the year went on, we got more and more open to the idea of marrying learning boys, but it was again with the caveat that "working boys are great too, as long as they have their priorities straight."
I have now all but given up that caveat. I feel like, while it was okay in theory, it must remain just that - a theory. I've been out with many boys, but this whole kovea ittim things has never held true in practice (with the boys I've gone out with).
It's funny, because you're supposed to "frum out" in Israel, not many years later back in the States. But seeing the sad reality out there has changed my mind. Boys who work are often (not always, but often) hard-pressed to find the time to learn each day. They're proud of themselves if they have a chavrusa a couple of times a week and spend some time learning on Shabbos. Now, I'm not downplaying how amazing that is. I don't have the chiyuv to learn every day, and I can't say how well I would do if I did. It's hard to take the time out of your schedule to learn that regularly. But just a few minutes every day and every night is plenty! I'm not asking for much more than that...just the basics of the halacha to show that you're committed...
Is that so much to ask?
posted by Holeches Levadi at 8:04 PM
13 Comments:
al tadin es chavercha ad shetagiah bimekomo.
kol haposel bemumo posel
good luck
Your comments are surely somewhat warranted, but I fear that somehow you are not being introduced to these working boys. They do exist. Also, a more common thing that happens, at least in my circle, is that guys get married while they are in yeshiva, then learn for a couple years before going to work. Thus, when they get married they are in full time learning and must adapt later to being a baal habus. This is only possible if a guy can get a job without going to college or goes college while he is in yeshiva, as was commonly done in my yeshiva. If guys are not allowed to go to college, this is not really a possibilty. Thus, you may find the world divided into shtark learning boys and shvach working guys, whereas in the system I came up in they could be one and the same.
Also, being a working guy is difficult. I am a quasi-working guy, as I am in law school. I'll say that the balance between school ,learning, and family is a difficult one, but I've done my best. There are good "working guys" out there. I hope that you succeed in finding whatever guy is right for you very soon.
A valid point that I hope to write a full post about soon. But for now, let me give you the perspective of the working/learning guy (as I am one).
Learning full time is hard. It takes a lot of motivation every day to keep going. If you appreciate this learning and the growth, chances are you are not going to want to leave it for working if you don't have to. And chances are if you can't live up to this intensely demanding lifestyle, you are going to leave Yeshiva and find your Tafkid outside full time learning. So the world of earners vs. learners is already self-selected amongst those with a cheishek for learning and those without.
That being said, there are good learner/earners out there. But they represent a cream of the crop - those who can juggle many intense things a day. And this is where I fear girls are misled in seminary. They are taught to want a guy who learns, full or part time, as if that is a Hashkafah. But it's not - Everyone can be black hat or MO, and have a shtark belief. But to actually sit and learn is not a capability that everyone has. So girls have to understand that this isn't just another thing you can have on your list of "wants" - it's like asking for a guy who goes to a "high" shiur, not just any shiur, as if talmudic IQ is something you should expect and need.
Most importantly, you allude to questioning whether if you had the chiyuv, you'd be able to live up to these standards. I can't say whether you would. But the problem with many of these girls is that they expect Mr. Do-it-all, but they themselves are laid-back-procrastinators. Not to mock girls, but once you realize that Mr. Learner/Earner is the exception, why do you think he will want you? Because you say an hour of Tehillim a day?
Odd...all I've come across are learning boys. I think I would prefer one who can manage both. But is that too much to ask? Answering my own question....probably.
I think Josh has some very pertinent comments.
Look-- there are practical matters to consider. Learning is great. Really. Ideally, everyone should learn a little bit each day. But we don't live in an ideal world.
Girls are taught to seek a full-time learner to marry, and guys are taught to aspire to being full-time learners. But there are two problems here: a)not everyone has it in him to learn full-time. Let's face it-- some people don't have the learning personality. I didn't. I went to beis medrash for a couple of years, and college at night; in all honesty, not to mitigate the learning chas veshalom, it really held back the progress of my secular education. I was unfocused, limited in course choices due to night availability (night college doesnt work well for certain majors), plus my yeshiva high-school education was completely focused away from any college prep. B), the reality is that at some point, unless there are wealthy parents and in-laws (and if there are, how do you suppose they got wealthy? Learning? Lotto?), someone is going to have to work to support a family. Especially if it is the big famiies that we were all taught to have. Money doesn't grow on trees.
Let me repeat that: Money doesn't grow on trees. And, the earning potential for a bochur who hasn't gone to college or learned a skilled profession is much more limited than those who have. I mean, how many people do you know who learned for a bunch of years early in their marriage, had a bunch of kids, and them when they had to "go out" and earn a living, are working in a seforim store or in their father's business, or behind the counter at Focus Electronics or J2 Pizza? Not that those are dishonorable jobs, but how much can you earn that way? Does learning for 8 years justify having to cram your family into a beat up car or living on top of each other in a cramped apartment, and getting section 8 and food stamps because you held up to an ideal of learning?
Practicality, folks. Practicality. Work, learn a trade, a profession, learn whatever you can simultaneously. Don't sentence a large family to hardship because of lowered earning potential.
Nice Jewish Guy: Amen, brother. You are on the mark.
Nice Jewish Guy - I agree with you. Did I not make that clear in my post? I agree that there should be a happy medium. Not everybody is cut out for learning, and it's not practical for all. Instead, many people should go out and work, while keeping Torah as their main priority. Right?
We're both starting off with that premise. The problem is that I haven't really met people that have lived by that premise. (That doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means I haven't met them.) Why is it that when I'm redd to a working boy, he invariably sees no need to be koveah ittim? Why is it that he seems more comfortable talking about politics than about Torah?
Jewboy - Perhaps a valid point, but my post also applies to boys I have gone out with whose yeshiva did not discourage them from attending college. Doesn't seem to make much of a difference...
Josh - You have probably voiced the most valid and thought-provoking response of all. I have to admit - after I read your comment, I was a bit stunned. You're right. Who says that I deserve such a "choice" shidduch?
I mean, honestly, I want somebody who's serious about Torah. Earner or otherwise didn't really matter to me (for the most part). But according to what you're saying, I should knock that bit off my "list."
There's only one problem. That's the one thing I've been trying to keep ON my list all these years. I don't care about height, about what schools he went to, about how much money he makes, about who his great-uncle was, about the fact that his second cousin grew up in a convent. All I care about (or at least TRY to care about) is whether he's building his life on Torah values.
Is that really too much to ask? If so, then I guess I should change my URL. I don't want to be a kallahsomeday unless my chosson were someone who shared my ideals and wanted to build a home based on Torah.
*Sigh*
No, don't take it off your list. Ask yourself what does living life by Torah values really entail.
and is learning everyday a litmus test for it?
or are they careful about halacha
or are they scurpulous about taking care of their fellow human being.
are any of us living our life that way already?
What we really deserve, G-d knows, but we have to be honest about what we are and how honest the image of what we're looking for is.
Hatzlacha
KS - Please don't take my words that way. I meant in no way to say that 1) you're not good enough for those guys, or 2) you should lower your standards. I think Masmida's advice was wonderful. My comment was meant to highlight the fact that there is just a greater number of shtark girls than shtark guys. While the ultimate solution is to increase the frumkeit of guys, on a personal level you can either look for ways to make yourself more competitive (which isn't necessarily a good thing- many "priorities" of the yeshiva crowd don't make you a better person) or as Masmida suggested, looking for more subjective ways of spotting guys that care about Torah. Which means dropping specific measurements of where they learned, how much they learn, or what they wear and instead looking for a guy who wants to raise his kids with an appreciation for Torah. Keep in mind that innately guys are less prone to an emotional attachment to the spiritual world, so it may be unrealistic to expect to find a guy who bonds with HKBH in the same way that you do. But that doesn't mean you are lowering your standards.
"...is learning everyday a litmus test for it?
or are they careful about halacha..."
Masmida - But learning every day IS a halacha. Am I wrong about that? I mean, I went out with a boy who didn't say a bracha on anything he ate. That, to me, is a warning flag. If you don't take brachos seriously, how can I expect that you take anything halacha seriously? Learning Torah as much as is halachically mandated seems to be exactly the same.
And as for the twice a day thing, I don't so much mind the fact that he may not manage to do it twice a day - to keep the halacha. People break halachos. I break halachos sometimes (gasp!). But after I do, I feel badly about it. I try to fix it. My goal would be to follow halacha completely, so even if I mess up along the way, I'm still a halacha follower. But with these boys (again, just those I've been out with), it's not even on their radar screen. "I learn twice a week," he says proudly. Very nice. I applaud you.
Do you see where my frustration lies?
"...dropping specific measurements of where they learned, how much they learn, or what they wear and instead looking for a guy who wants to raise his kids with an appreciation for Torah..."
Josh - I hope that I don't have those measurements - except for the "how much they learn" bit. That's really, really important to me. Would you go to a doctor if people have told you that he barely looks at any new medical information/studies since he finished med school? You can't truly "raise [your] kids with an appreciation for Torah" unless you learn it. Often.
And the others - honestly, they're definitely not make-it-or-break-it with me. Where they learned? I don't even know what most of the places are. I get the names of yeshivas only so I can find other people who know them personally. What they wear? I've gone out with all types. (Well, almost all. No grunge.) Certain types of clothes do make a specific statement, but I hope I would not say no purely based on the fact that he wears a [fill in the blank]. Sometimes, statements are misleading.
Holeches - A) See my newest post, which goes into more detail than I even intended. B) While I agree it is a Halacha, it is also a Halacha to tie the left shoe before the right shoe. I am not minimizing either Halacha - I'm just pointing out that there is a never ending well of it out there. You have to measure a guy's frumkeit, but measure him based on his yardstick, not your seminary's. Maybe two days a week is all he can do, and maybe he doesn't know the Berachos. The question is does he recognize Halacha as supreme. As long as he does, than you can play a big role in teaching and inspiring him. Trust me, in college there was no push to learn, so guys drifted out. Bring in a wife who gushes over every Dvar Torah, and they will rush to the Beis Medrash.
Josh - Thank you. You've given me something to think about. Especially in the last two sentences of your comment.
I guess, the ideal is to have a balance of both, which in my opinion, is a rare kind. I agree to most of the comments here and truly not all are cut-out for learning. Practicality is still of common interest to most. But still, it is true enough that there are a lot of good working guys around. I'm sure there will be someone out there cut-out for you.
Mel Balsamo
JRomances.com
Post a Comment
<< Home